Grenfell Tower (UK) is not Mental Health crisis it's Cyanide poisoning

Hello everyone,
I didn't know where best to place this appeal, as I wanted to reach as many scientists as possible so I have popped it here in general chit chat.
Mods please move if incorrect, but please bare in mind I am appealing to as many possible members here that might be able to help.

On June 14th this year, there was a tower block fire, which was totally avoidable, that took the lives of 71 people, and has left a community devastated. 6 months later there are still some 300 people living in hotels.

I hit the ground there with a team of complementary therapists on the 18th, and we have been attending to the survivors, evacuees and other volunteers since then.
In the meantime the biggest mental health operation since WWII was launched by the Government, Council and NHS.

At first I was very aware that we would possibly be dealing with asbestos poisoning. This I soon found out would not necessarily be the case. But what did come to light was the phenomenal amount of cyanide gas that was given off.
I have researched the effects of cyanide poisoning, and they run parallel to mental health issues being presented by survivors and the local community at large. HOWEVER, the physical symptoms people are now developing are also symptoms of cyanide poisoning as it settles/attacks the CNS (Central Nervous System).

I am desperately trying to find evidence/clinical papers relating to the LONG TERM health effects of cyanide poisoning. I have all I need about immediate treatment and symptoms.

I believe the mental health approach by the official bodies is a cover up to the real issue of poisoning.
You cannot claim compensation for mental health/trauma......but you can certainly claim where your physical health has been impacted, and in this case for probably the rest of your life.
There are 15 of us therapists involved and we are seeing clear signs that what the people are experiencing is not the state of their minds, but as a result of poisoning, which does affect their mental health as well as their physical well being. Can you imagine the complete uproar this would cause if it sees the light of day?

The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea is THE richest council in the UK sitting on BILIIONS in surplus funds, and yet the survivors are still in hotels 6 months later and being processed as having PTSD and other mental health issues.

If any of you can point me in the direction of any papers which cite the long term health ramifications of cyanide poisoning (much like long term effects of asbestos poisoning) I would be eternally grateful as I have to attend a public meeting with the Council next Tuesday and I want to be locked and loaded with irrefutable evidence that they are covering up and deflecting from the real issue at hand.



Thanking you all in advance
Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: angelchemuel

I've sent you a PM, Jane.
Good luck to you and all of those suffering that you are helping.

I hope the link is of some value to you.
((hugs))

a reply to: TNMockingbird

Thank you, appreciated.
Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: angelchemuel

Blood tests. If cyanide is in the body it will show up in a blood test. I would organize as many as possible.

I gave you a tweet on this. Hopefully it will find even more ears for you and I think it is important to get the possibility of this being true out there far and wide.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention

a reply to: Woodcarver

Unfortunately it wont. The body will metabolise it and there wont be any traces now as it goes directly to the CNS (Central Nervous System)
However an MRI scan can show whether the brain has signs of Parkisonian Syndrome.
Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: onehuman

A tweet? As in Twitter?
Sorry if I am being a bit thick
Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: angelchemuel

You could look for papers on the Bhopal disaster. Thousands were affected by cyanadi poisoning there.

en.wikipedia.org...

Thiosulfate is an antidote to neutralize cyanide, but it only neutralizes the cyanide, making it into isothiocyanate which is less of a problem. Just eat onions.

The damage created by cyanide poisoning will take a long time to fix, older people especially. Young people regenerate new cells faster so maybe after treatment, some of the chemistry of the parsley family can be used to clear up the damaged cells by stimulating apoptopsis of damaged cells. It shouldn't hurt healthy cells, it blocks anti-apoptosis enzymes from being created. Some people are not able to eat celery though raw, some can't even eat it cooked. The chemicals I am talking about are heat stable, parsley in the soup can help.

But remember this, if you cause any cell to die, it usually gives off a little cyanide in the process as it dies, including microbes and human cells. This makes people thirsty, so they drink water and the cyanide is sent out of the kidneys or in the sweat. Cyanide binds to the receptors of cells and makes them not work so well, this can cause cells to get damaged from not getting energy. If I remember right, Isothiocyanide also binds to the site and stops excessive signaling, that is why mustard stops cramping of muscles. Sugar actually knocks the isothiocyanate off and you get more energy, but also it can start cramping again in some muscles which can damage cells which releases cyanide which is nutralized by thiols in the body and relaxes the muscles. You can have problems if you do not have certain chemistries to neutralize this in the body. Onions are one of the most widely grown vegetables in the world, onion powder and onion salt also work

Got to quit, my carpel tunnel in my left hand is acting up, it effects my typing. No cure found by me for that yet. The information I gave is for teaching you and others, you may be able to adapt this to fix problems but you need to think this out before starting, and study it more before thinking about starting this. I generalized things. There is much more to this than what I say, side effects can occur if people cannot tolerate sulfur chemistry, maybe a little extra molybdenum supplement or oatmeal will provide that molybdenum.

The cyanide in cranberries makes me thirsty, I evidently make an enzyme that cleaves it and it makes me have an unquenchable thirst. The bodies response to flushing out the cyanide, but it also dampens the kidney function so a diuretic, coffee, helps to boost urination. Some people have this happen with blueberries or other cyanide based chemistries in food. Everyone is different, the enzymes are often different between people and one mans medicine is another mans poison. Because of this problem with thirst on turkey day I did a lot of research on this, I thought that the turkey was the main problem, not eating the cranberries eliminated this thirst. Of course, as food digests, it is dying cells, and that actually gives off a little cyanide and makes us drink with or after our meal.

Another thing, if these people are taking vitamins with high B12 in the form of cyanocobalamin in them, they should switch to methyl or hyroxy cobalamin. The cyanide is cleaved from the cobalamin in the stomach acid and adds cyanide to fuel the problem. Also Hydroxy cobalamin can help with any tylenol damage to the kidneys. Cobalamin is needed to help fix this problem so just switch the type.

Cyanocobalamin actually cleaves in healthy people and the cyanide combines with sulfur components in the body and helps to calm a person and slows cramping. It calms society by dampening energy. I think that is one of the reasons it is used.. Too much can cause lots of problems, especially if sulfur enzymes are lacking, if the molybdopterins are not formed they cannot assist in many enzymes. Sulfa drugs might complicate this, so will some of the yellow food colorings that are sulfur based, like yellow number five and six.

I should clarify the last part, the yellow five is a thiol, actually an antidote somewhat, but unlike onions which are a seed and contain molybdenum in them, number five can cause excessive sulfite which in turn can complicate things. One of the molybdenum supplements might help with these food colorings, but we still only can process limited amounts of sulfur and nitrogen, the detox of nitrogen and sulfur uses the same systems in our body in some instances. Also lower the consumption of cruciferous veggies, they contain isothiocyanates and the extra effect on dampening cells is not advisable in this situation.

Hopefully I haven't confused too many people with this, it is hard to generalize something like this and put it into laymans terms.

a reply to: stormcell

Ahhh....Thank you! Will do!
Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: rickymouse

Thank you for both your responses.
Many of the people who reacted at the time of the fire were treated with PAP kits etc in hospital, some were even put into induced comas. One lady lost her baby boy she was carrying at 7 month gestation due to the cyanide
However, there were many many people just watching that night too and have been showing signs of cyanide poisoning.
My understanding is that most of the cyanide is now out of people's system, however the damage from inhalation and skin absorption will have settled in the CNS.
I am already aware of the B12 situation.
I will have a look at all the nutrition information you have suggested as one of our Kinesiologists is also a nutritionist.


Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: angelchemuel

The brain and nervous system has reserve stem cells in the brain, but cyanide poisoning can cause the death of these too. Nervous system cells can regenerate but it is a slow process.

In normal cells our immune system cells release hydrogen peroxide to bare the stem cells and trigger them to build new cells. This is done by the T cells if I remember right. But nervous system cells are different, the hydrogen peroxide can cause problems so our immune system has a different slower way. I have not been able to yet find an article that shows a way to jump start the nervous system to repair what is damaged. Other than those stem cells in a section of the midbrain and I think there are some around the tailbone in animals but we do not have a tail. Even those salimanders who lose their tail and grow a new one do not have proper nerve regeneration in the new tail. There are some nerves, but not all types that are needed for full proper function.


I have read a lot of articles on lots of things, my eyes hurt a lot when I stare at the monitor all day. I only know what the research says, then I evaluate it and check if my conclusions are correct. I can remember things that way. I translate this stuff into laymans terms, some is lost, I try to comprehend it by comparing it to what I already know so I can apply it better. But with the lack of adequate research on the regeneration of the nervous system I cannot conclude much, there is not enough of it to compare to evaluate possible ways to fix things.

The nervous system does need choline to help to repair itself. Many medicines have anticholorinogenic activity which would tend to block a repair on nervous tissue. It would seem to me that these may slow repair of the brain and nervous system. Sometimes slow is better, but slowing something that is already slow might be a problem. I have to go watch the video you posted now.

Eggs are a good source of a good choline, and coffee can adjuvate the reaction. I do not know if it is strong enough to rebuild the nerves though.

I went searching for whether milk thistle or Holy thistle could help, it does have some good effects on the nervous system repair. Again, a specialized sulfur chemistry so taking molybdenum may be necessary for some people. Here is an article on that. www.wellnessresources.com... I have no clue if this would work, I usually think of thistles helping the liver to regenerate properly, including proper nerve regeneration there.

Another article I found here. www.sciencedaily.com... I studied this mostly about three years ago when a friend had nerve damage that was effecting his feet. This is a newer article than was available then. There might be natural inducers of the activation of the schwann cells or dietary stimulation of the PRC2 that makes the enzyme that could help. I like natural ways, Pharma companies turn natural chemistry into expensive pills, then I hack it and bring it back to the foods. I wish I could just get a list from them instead of having to hack the action of the meds. Yeah, I guess I am just in a dreamworld to think they would even think about giving that info out to people who ask. I also evaluate the strength of chemistry in food and try to compare it to the medicines. It is easy to get a theropedic dose out of many foods, but they tend to try to either make us indirectly believe it isn't true or tell us the chemistry was found some special food we cannot easily get hold of. Usually that means it is found in fish or stuff like dandelions I have found. Dandelions contain some of the chemistry of thistles, and all thistles have similar chemistry, the milk thistle is actually a little stronger, you need just a little more.

a reply to: stormcell

It doesn't look like any cyanide was released at Bhopal

a reply to: angelchemuel

I found a paper that deals with cyanide poisoning - Prospective Study of Hydroxocobalamin for Acute Cyanide Poisoning in Smoke Inhalation (PDF). The paper discusses ways of assessing cyanide poisoning that occur in heavy doses during fires etc. So much is obvious from the title...

The reason it could be useful for you is it has a lot of references. Check them out and you might find what you're looking for.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of research on *long term effects of cyanide poisoning* because they are limited. Acute poisoning is treated and patients either recover or die quickly.

I'm in no way an expert and only skimmed a few associated papers to look for what you're after. I did catch some references to foetal effects which, presumably, may lead to unwanted syndromes in children who were exposed to cyanide poisoning in the womb.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Thank you I will have a read shortly.
I wish I could find the medical paper which said that people exposed to cyanide in higher than 'normal' levels, such as those by firemen in house fires, can start developing symptoms of CNS damage from 6 months after exposure.
They treat the inhalation immediately, they have to otherwise people would die. But many people can still inhale, have symptoms that they can 'naturally' recover from, but 6 months or more later they start presenting symptoms because the cyanide attacks the CNS.

Also, a lot of the immediate 'mental' symptoms of cyanide gas inhalation are things like confusion and disorientation...hardly surprising that survivors who are presenting this in the aftermath are being lumped into PTSD/mental health problems due to the 'trauma'. The problem being it can be permanent.

There have been over 20 suicide attempts since the fire. Interestingly, if there has been a case of depression or substance abuse, once cyanide gas is introduced into the mix it is basically guaranteed the person will attempt suicide.

One of the survivors, a young man in his 20's and quite fit, that I have been helping, was in a funk but not depressed before the fire. He didn't do drugs or alcohol as he was an avid football/soccer player, playing up to 5 times a week and helping train youth teams in the area. He was a young man who tried to commit suicide. He was deemed to have PTSD and was put on all sorts of anti-depressants, anti psychotics and sleeping tablets, and was receiving mental health counselling. I met him a couple of months ago, and afforded him hours of time to just talk and he received physical treatment from other members of the team. That young man is now completely off his medication, he did it himself and is living proof that he doesn't have PTSD. He still comes for physical therapy as he continues his journey back to physical and mental wellness. I don't know whether it was because we addressed his underlying issues before the fire, whether because I said he had 'reactive depression' after the fire, but this young man has sparkle back in his eyes, and a smile on his face and has told the mental health team what he thinks of them. But I still worry about his health as he had the Grenfell Cough, and still has sinus problems, but we'll get there

Rainbows
Jane

originally posted by: angelchemuel
a reply to: Kandinsky

Thank you I will have a read shortly.
I wish I could find the medical paper which said that people exposed to cyanide in higher than 'normal' levels, such as those by firemen in house fires, can start developing symptoms of CNS damage from 6 months after exposure.
They treat the inhalation immediately, they have to otherwise people would die. But many people can still inhale, have symptoms that they can 'naturally' recover from, but 6 months or more later they start presenting symptoms because the cyanide attacks the CNS.

Also, a lot of the immediate 'mental' symptoms of cyanide gas inhalation are things like confusion and disorientation...hardly surprising that survivors who are presenting this in the aftermath are being lumped into PTSD/mental health problems due to the 'trauma'. The problem being it can be permanent.

There have been over 20 suicide attempts since the fire. Interestingly, if there has been a case of depression or substance abuse, once cyanide gas is introduced into the mix it is basically guaranteed the person will attempt suicide.

One of the survivors, a young man in his 20's and quite fit, that I have been helping, was in a funk but not depressed before the fire. He didn't do drugs or alcohol as he was an avid football/soccer player, playing up to 5 times a week and helping train youth teams in the area. He was a young man who tried to commit suicide. He was deemed to have PTSD and was put on all sorts of anti-depressants, anti psychotics and sleeping tablets, and was receiving mental health counselling. I met him a couple of months ago, and afforded him hours of time to just talk and he received physical treatment from other members of the team. That young man is now completely off his medication, he did it himself and is living proof that he doesn't have PTSD. He still comes for physical therapy as he continues his journey back to physical and mental wellness. I don't know whether it was because we addressed his underlying issues before the fire, whether because I said he had 'reactive depression' after the fire, but this young man has sparkle back in his eyes, and a smile on his face and has told the mental health team what he thinks of them. But I still worry about his health as he had the Grenfell Cough, and still has sinus problems, but we'll get there

Rainbows
Jane

You can do a google search with terms like: firemen "cyanide poisoning" CNS pdf

I've tried downloading the PDF's but they seem blocked for some mysterious reason. But if you use the "cache" feature (the black / triangle on the right), you can download them direct from google cache:

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rAJUftBTDuUJ:www.effua.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Report-of-the-Investigation-Committee-into-the-Cya nide-Poisonings-of-Providence-Firefighters.pdf+&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

a reply to: stormcell

Ooohh...thank you I'll take a look tomorrow as it's bedtime here in the UK

Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: angelchemuel

I was as horrified as anyone else when the early morning news was streaming the footage of Grenfell. It looked so much worse in those early hours when the flames were raging and the sun hadn't risen.

I don't want to sound cheesy when I say thanks for what you've done and for what your profession does every day.

Also, a lot of the immediate 'mental' symptoms of cyanide gas inhalation are things like confusion and disorientation...hardly surprising that survivors who are presenting this in the aftermath are being lumped into PTSD/mental health problems due to the 'trauma'. The problem being it can be permanent.

There have been over 20 suicide attempts since the fire. Interestingly, if there has been a case of depression or substance abuse, once cyanide gas is introduced into the mix it is basically guaranteed the person will attempt suicide.

I guess responders and doctors know about the constellation of symptoms (and causes) and hedge their bets according to most common ailments. It'll save time and cover a wider spread of reported symptoms and effects.

Still, I'm interested in your experience and knowledge here. It seems reasonable that survivors would be able to get 2nd opinions and other consultations to make sure initial diagnoses were accurate. Knee-jerking towards PTSD based on statistical frequency only goes so far. Like I said, it's not my area so these points might be really stupid.

The suicide link sounds like comorbidity. It's interesting.

I believe that it can be detected in hair samples.