(Part 1) The Phoenix Lights - Laying To Rest The Myth

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: kangawoo
I thought multiple witnesses also described the craft/lights simultaneously accelerate at incredible speed?

Maybe you're thinking of a different case? If not, it would be better to post a source than what appears to be just a brain fart.

Here, go to 4:30

Gosh, I don't know why I should believe a word offered by a government that has been covering up UFO material for my entire life.

Not sure if this particular vid was previously posted….in this forum’s threads about The Phoenix Lights…. but here this is….4:02 minutes duration.

It is back from the days of VHS footage and then digitized for uploading.

Titled UFO Phoenix Lights - Original Footage Cleaned Up

I could not embed it here…….it starts from the middle….. “rewind 😉” and Start from the beginning…..

m.youtube.com...

If someone can embed it….go for it

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originally posted by: kangawoo

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: kangawoo
I thought multiple witnesses also described the craft/lights simultaneously accelerate at incredible speed?

Maybe you're thinking of a different case? If not, it would be better to post a source than what appears to be just a brain fart.

Here, go to 4:30

Cool, I wasn't sure if I remembered hearing about the Phoenix Lights quickly accelerating, but OK, it makes sense as a conclusion to the original sighting, which lingered for a couple hours or so IIRC.

There had to be some kind of conclusion to it...

originally posted by: kurthall
a reply to: combatmaster

Including the government officials, said it was "other worldly". So yeah I tend to believe that this was not flairs.

yeah and i wonder why they would be dropping flares over a wooded area in the first place.

a reply to: sarahvital

Interesting, I haven’t read your take mentioned anywhere else or I missed it.

Yeah sure….. if it’s flares over wooded areas, even over heavy brush areas of a training range….then the potential for fire is great, especially in Arizona….fires are not kind to them.

IF this was a flare exercise….then why a one-off demonstration…..that worried people.

You would think if it was a normal training exercise or load off….it would have played out during years before and during years after…so that the people would have been used to seeing them and think nothing of it.

”Oh…they are just doing their nighttime flare exercises” “ahh don’t panic, it’s just flares” type talk.

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originally posted by: kangawoo

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: kangawoo
I thought multiple witnesses also described the craft/lights simultaneously accelerate at incredible speed?

Maybe you're thinking of a different case? If not, it would be better to post a source than what appears to be just a brain fart.

Here, go to 4:30

At 4:30 it's not clear whether they are talking about the 8pm planes in formation or the 10pm flares. Both could have been seen to "disappear" as they describe, so it doesn't matter that much.

The flares did "disappear" behind a mountain ridge, and this could have been perceived as the "sides retracting" as one witness claimed since they didn't all disappear at the same time. Or if the lights on the planes were directional they can stop being seen as the plane flies overhead, which would make them seemingly "disappear" even if the lights stayed on. This could happen for example with landing lights, which point forward.

We also saw with flares tied to balloons in NJ where people reported them taking off like this...showing this misperception happens and if you think critically you will question what people claim and whether they are stating misperceptions or not. Also remember there are numerous videos of the Phoenix lights and none of them show any sudden acceleration or deceleration, though some videos do show the lights disappearing behind the mountain ridge.

Here's a little documentary about the flares tied to balloons where the same kind of reports happened about them "taking off at incredible speed", which obviously didn't happen, but that's what witnesses reported. There are lessons to be learned here for critical thinkers.

How We Staged a UFO Hoax



ATS image host is broken. I don't know how long that image from another host will last, so here is the description, it's a screenshot from time 3:47 in the video where they explain people said of the the flares tied to balloons "they took off at incredible speeds". Sound familiar? Did they really do that? No, they were flares tied to balloons in NJ, and planes at 8pm and flares at 10pm in Phoenix. Apparently the flares in Phoenix disappeared behind the mountain ridgeline, which is what made those "disappear" as documented in the following video analysis.

Phoenix Lights Explained & Debunked (the 10pm flares)


Also relevant to the Phoenix lights case, and just like the Phoenix lights case, some eyewitnesses of the flares tied to balloons thought they were individual objects, and other witnesses thought the lights were on one giant object (we also see this same dichotomy of witness descriptions with satellite re-entry cases). This image is from time 4:05 in the video where they explain that "Some people thought it was one giant structure" referring to the flares tied to balloons. In Phoenix this misperception happened with both the 8pm planes and the 10pm flares, for some witnesses but not all.

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
Titled UFO Phoenix Lights - Original Footage Cleaned Up

I could not embed it here…….it starts from the middle….. “rewind 😉” and Start from the beginning…..

That's not really cleaned up much, see the Cognitech clean up in the "Phoenix Lights Explained & Debunked" though that is just the 10pm flares. You seem silly questioning the flares since even the true UFO believers mostly admit those were flares at 10pm, and they say the real mystery is the 8pm event (the V formation of planes or misperceived giant object with lights on it in a V-formation), not the 10pm flares.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Arbi….a simple request if you could indulge me…….show me a side by side comparison of the actual illumination in the sky at 8pm and 10pm. Freeze frames preferably. Not full run videos, or links….just screenshots of the night sky what you believe looked like for those two time events.

As for flares….you are sure that it was a one-off event that was never done again, even in the years after? Because it’s never been reported, that I’m aware of ever happening again. I would then find that odd. Military training is usually a repeatable and scheduled events. Whether the flare trading is for operational battle field training or dumping flares for lightening the load situations in simulating low aircraft fuel inflight emergency training.

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Well so one thing I wonder about. Do the debunkers acknowledge that there were 2 separate events then, on the same night?

Because I always thought that the 2nd event -- the government exercise -- was intended to kind of replace the original mysterious UFO sighting.




So then it's interesting if the debunkers are needing to acknowledge 2 separate events, then the original intended psy-ops didn't really work.

I think the intention was for everyone to think it was only ONE event, the government exercise thing.

Also I checked the original post and it turns out, that the premise of the original post is disappointingly a debunker style post, he's basically acknowledging 2 events but blaming them both on official government activity, well that's great. Like I said before, it's the most interesting aspect that the debunkers need to acknowledge 2 events at all, since initially it seemed that the 2nd event was meant to blur into the first event, and it was meant to seem like it was all ONLY one event. That was my initial impression.

Anyway this event is one of those mysteries that's compelling just by the event itself.

Here, the 1st event is clearly a mysterious event, more than being planes with square wings, whatever debunker argument that's supposed to be, I think you're still saying that the square planes were a mystery. So it's not really clearing up anything unless I got a wrong impression from glancing around the thread.

Anyway the original post has a photo of the supposed first event.

I have NOT put my own time into this topic yet, besides glancing at this thread (and I lived through the live-media event itself in the 90's).

So the event was a mess in the media immediately, with false government info right away, inclu. the 2nd event that night was simply a misinfo event, afaik, it was planes dropping flares, and it was meant to replace the 1st event, it seemed.

So likewise, this thread seems a mess of misinfo and real mystery, a mix just like the same night of the damn event itself lol.

So anyway, without pouring my own time into this topic at the moment, I can't double-check everything right now, but the original post presents THIS image as the 1st event, of the night:




So we can see the mystery enduring just by the original event itself... assuming OP is correctly identifying that image as the 1st, original mysterious event.

Now assuming that's the 1st event: It's low-resolution and it's a messy image. But even with all that, it STILL looks mysterious. There seems a giant solid object among the lights!!

I expect I could brighten the image and show that better, but so could everyone do that, too.






...But don't you guys see that giant black mass among the lights?!



...Also is there a post or something that clears up exactly what media is, from that night? What photos & vids exist, and what they show?

This topic is inherently confusing because we're talking about two different, but similar, events, in the same night.

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Arbi….a simple request if you could indulge me…….show me a side by side comparison of the actual illumination in the sky at 8pm and 10pm. Freeze frames preferably. Not full run videos, or links….just screenshots of the night sky what you believe looked like for those two time events.

I'm not sure what you're after here but I started having trouble posting images about the same time you did. I can re-post the images from the OP, which were already posted.

This is the first event about 8pm, the dots in the background aren't stars, it's noise, from the only video I know of for that 8pm-ish event:

originally posted by: _BoneZ_

First Event - THE VEE

This was the event that started the whole night off, beginning around 8:30pm, and lasting for the next almost 15 minutes.

There is only one known video of the first event, recorded by retired pilot and contract employee with the U.S. Department of Defense, Terry Proctor, on his VHS camera for 43-seconds. Below is a moving GIF that I made from part of the video, which is not available anywhere online, but small clips of which can be seen on Discovery Channel's Website:

I think the first event lasted longer than the OP states, meaning more than 15 minutes, though maybe 15 minutes could be accurate with respect to observations in Phoenix. But the planes were seen before they got to Phoenix and after they left Phoenix, which took longer than 15 minutes, and the appearance of the sky changed during that interval, since it was getting darker. Tim Printy says it was seen from 8pm to 9pm across the entire region, not just in Phoenix:

The V- formation of lights and my analysis by Tim Printy

The other event was an actual V-shaped formation of lights that went from North to South between 8 and 9PM. Interesting to note is that this formation flew from north of the Prescott Valley area and then proceeded to follow the interstate (I-17/10). This gives one reason to pause and think about the whole situation. Are the ET's that lost that they require following the interstate?

This is from one of the videos of the second event around 10pm, there are several videos and they look similar to this screenshot.

originally posted by: _BoneZ_

Second Event - FLARES

I'm going to start with the second event because it's the most recognizable. When someone mentions "Phoenix Lights', the above image is the first thing to come to mind as images and videos of the second event were plastered all over newspapers, television, and websites.

As most already know, and yet some will still deny to this day, the lights seen in the above image are from flares dropped by four A-10 Warthog military planes on a training exercise at the Barry Goldwater Range at Luke Air Force Base. This information comes to light thanks to the U.S. Air Force.

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
As for flares….you are sure that it was a one-off event that was never done again, even in the years after? Because it’s never been reported, that I’m aware of ever happening again.

It did happen again, but there weren't lots of people out looking for comet Hale-Bopp so nobody paid much attention to it when it happened in subsequent years. There's a video posted below of one such event about a decade later.

In 1997, a phenomenon in Phoenix which came to be called the Phoenix Lights caused a stir, some residents describing the lights in a similar way, others perhaps embellishing on the shape and adding extra details such as seeing a triangular-shaped craft. They happened again in metro Phoenix ten years later, captured on video clips like THIS one.

Military Flares not "ufos"

So why just 10 years later and not more frequently? The flare drops likely happen more frequently but as we saw in the Phoenix lights videos, the flares disappeared below the ridgeline, but what if they never appeared above the ridgeline to begin with? That is why this author suspects they aren't seen more often, there's a big mountain blocking the view more often than not (link talks about the 10pm event, it may not mention the 8pm event):

Phoenix Lights

The flares are typically dropped at lower altitudes, where they are not visible from Phoenix, due to the intervening Sierra Estrella mountain range.

originally posted by: JamesChessman
So anyway, without pouring my own time into this topic at the moment, I can't double-check everything right now, but the original post presents THIS image as the 1st event, of the night:

You must be blind. It says

Second Event - FLARES

in HUGE letters, right above the image where I copied it directly from the OP, you just omitted the "Second Event" text from your copy/paste. See above.

Haha OK, I didn't see it right.

Yes the original post labels the image as the 2nd event. I did mention that I don't have time to pour into these topics that I'm just glancing at right now.

For what it's worth, I thought your label was like a general heading... instead of labeling the photo...

So besides that label: It says that you're going to discuss both events of that night... then that's the 1st image you showed, which could be expected to show the 1st of 2 events, but OK, you presented it as the 2nd event.




...Well wait is it completely established that that's the 2nd event? Because... isn't that the original event photo...




Man this is absurd, it's like 30 years later and everything is still all mixed up re: this topic.




Also this is the original psy-ops of the night of the event, it was confused on purpose that night. Therefore the evidence of the 1st mysterious sighting becomes assumed as the 2nd non-mysterious sighting.

I'm not blaming you yourself because I know that all the info has been all mixed up all this time. But I think that's an image of the original event, isn't it?

I mean, I think it shows a mysterious black shape among the lights, too, but the first step is sorting out exactly which event is each piece of evidence from that night...

Also you mentioned it as the most well-known image and generally, I think you're correct that it's the most common image... but that's ALSO why I think it's from the 1st mysterious event that night...

How sure are you that it's from the 2nd event, not the 1st?

a reply to: Arbitrageur
Arbi……ArMap suggested the following upload work-around that works for me.

While you are signed in and normally viewing stuff on the ATS website ….. open a separate tab webpage (blank) and enter in the following img.abovetopsecret.com/5/index.php into the URL search bar.

This should take you, as it did me, to the pictures upload page…..you should then be able to upload and then you’ll have to copy the picture link and past the pictures link to your originally opened ATS website page in posting function

At first the uploading itself didn’t work until the third try….and since then I’ve been able to post pics again

It extra steps (hassles) but I get pictures uploaded.

What I don’t like about the work around is that it opens in an unsecured webpage….not sure what could happen such as unauthorized access while open. Also note that the upload page has no ATS logo and is titled “UploadiFive Test” ……So my advice is to shut down the upload page immediately after getting your pictures uploaded and posted. Then repeat the hassles as needed….with caution.

Good Luck 🍀

👽🛸🍺

originally posted by: JamesChessman
Also you mentioned it as the most well-known image and generally, I think you're correct that it's the most common image... but that's ALSO why I think it's from the 1st mysterious event that night...

You would be wrong to think that. Some facts are debated; that's not one of them, though some sources don't even mention there are two different events. Part of the reason I think why there's less discussion in the media of the 1st event is because there's only one video of the first event and it's poor quality, but still it proves it's not one large object like some people claim, see the OP for the proof. It doesn't help the extraordinary claims to show a video proving the extraordinary claims are wrong. So most videos are of the second event, there are several videos and they are better quality, and they don't disprove any claims about the first event, because they are not recordings of the first event.

How sure are you that it's from the 2nd event, not the 1st?

100% sure.

a reply to: Ophiuchus1
Thanks for the workaround tip, next time I need to upload an image I'll try it. Hopefully the images I re-posted from the OP posts are adequate for your needs, or maybe a bit more explanation is needed if not, regarding why not.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: JamesChessman
Also you mentioned it as the most well-known image and generally, I think you're correct that it's the most common image... but that's ALSO why I think it's from the 1st mysterious event that night...

You would be wrong to think that. Some facts are debated; that's not one of them, though some sources don't even mention there are two different events. Part of the reason I think why there's less discussion in the media of the 1st event is because there's only one video of the first event and it's poor quality, but still it proves it's not one large object like some people claim, see the OP for the proof. It doesn't help the extraordinary claims to show a video proving the extraordinary claims are wrong. So most videos are of the second event, there are several videos and they are better quality, and they don't disprove any claims about the first event, because they are not recordings of the first event.

How sure are you that it's from the 2nd event, not the 1st?

100% sure.

a reply to: Ophiuchus1
Thanks for the workaround tip, next time I need to upload an image I'll try it. Hopefully the images I re-posted from the OP posts are adequate for your needs, or maybe a bit more explanation is needed if not, regarding why not.

How / why are you 100% sure about it though.

If it's the most well-known image of that night's events, which you stated, then it makes more sense to expect that it came from the original mysterious event of the night... being the original interest of the night.

I simply don't have the time and energy to pour into this topic right now but it seems far from 100% clear. I just glanced more at the opening posts, and they contain conflicting witness accounts, which is understandable, but conflicting reports don't necessarily add up to a 100% clear idea of real events.

And as for evidence of the 1st event:

The only recording of all, is the short video of lights against the stars? That's the absolutely only recordings of the 1st event, i.e. no other video or photos at all?

Isn't there something more of photos / vids of the 1st event?

Didn't news channels show images of the 1st event when it happened and directly after? I remember the news going off about the event, during / after it happened... didn't they have any images with their news stories?

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Thx….here’s the side by side I was asking for……



And now there’s this in a Nut’s Shell ….. it comes down to planes and flares

Phoenix Lights UFO Event Debunked - March 13, 1997 1,472 views · 2 months ago posted 2022


Composite overlay comparison….(Discovery Channel portion extracted from debunk vid above)


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originally posted by: JamesChessman
How / why are you 100% sure about it though.

If it's the most well-known image of that night's events, which you stated, then it makes more sense to expect that it came from the original mysterious event of the night... being the original interest of the night.

I simply don't have the time and energy to pour into this topic right now but it seems far from 100% clear.

Like I already told you, there are some things that are debated like whether the first event was really planes and what kind of planes they were, but there's really no debate about which event was first and which was second and I don't have any interest in holding your hand re-explaining the whole thread to you because you don't feel like reading it.

Watch the video Ophi posted which is a reasonable summary, though it seems a bit odd to me that he refers to the 8pm event as the 2nd event and the 10pm event as the 1st event, but the OP of this thread addresses them in that order too for reasons explained in the OP. But there's no doubt the 8-9pm event was before the 10pm event regardless of how you label them.

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
And now there’s this in a Nut’s Shell ….. it comes down to planes and flares

Phoenix Lights UFO Event Debunked - March 13, 1997 1,472 views · 2 months ago posted 2022

Yes planes with squarish wings from 8-9pm and flares at 10pm, more or less explained in that video similar to the way it's explained in the opening posts of this thread.

The author of that video is more sure than I am of the identity of the aircraft, though I agree the Canadian Snowbirds is one of the possibilities, and the air traffic chatter about that in the video is accurate according to what I researched. But we can't say with certainty it was the Canadian snowbirds since they have not acknowledged the planes were theirs, though the video makes some arguments about why they might deny the planes being Canadian snowbirds, even if they were.

Tim Printy's analysis mentions some other possibilities for the type of aircraft in the 8-9pm event, and it shows a sketch of what they looked like through Mitch Stanley's telescope:

The V- formation of lights and my analysis by Tim Printy
The lighting configuration on the Canadian Snowbirds planes does seem to match.

a reply to: Ophiuchus1
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Adding….from vid I previously posted above



I guess to verify the Canadian Snowbirds would be a air show schedule during those days that would have had them performing either in Arizona or New Mexico….or other state. There would be no reason for them to be in the southwest or southern states region unless to do a guest performance.

According to the vid I posted above in my previous posting, it was mentioned that the planes were picked up by Albuquerque NM ATC. That record should have existed back then. Was it looked into? Who knows….but if real….it would place the Snowbirds in the southwest airspace.

I’m convinced of five separate flying craft…….the question for me now is are they unequivocally human made craft (Snowbirds, etc) OR other (orbs, saucers, etc)?.

Given the speed, altitudes, and following along highways….they were more than likely human made craft……

What I have not seen was the mentioning’s of craft flying Visual Flight Rules (VFR) at night. This is a strong possibility….



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Ok…..some new information has come to light. The earliest timeframe the Canadian Snowbirds were performing in 1997, in the U.S. was ….I would say no more than a couple of days before April 25 which was their first U.S. performance at Nellis AFB in Nevada. The air show there was on Friday April 25 and Saturday April 26. Then the Snowbirds went on to do their only, one day, Arizona show of the 1997 season, which was Tuesday April 29 at Page, Arizona.

Given that the early and late Phoenix events happened on March 13th…..I can confidently say that the cost of logistics and pre-staging of the Snowbirds and associated support equipment at Nellis for more than a month prior to its first performance at Nellis, would have been cost prohibitive for the Canadian Air Force. It just would not have been done.

With the schedule (shown below) you could see, they had no time for long pauses in between the amount of places and shows they were scheduled to do. They certainly can’t be placed anywhere in the U.S. prior to April 1997, imo.

This is the top panel and schedule panel of a multi panel foldout event schedule brochure from the Snowbirds 1997 season.


For me, the early event of March 13 1997 in the Arizona sky…were other craft, other than the Canadian Snowbirds.

So then what craft and who’s craft could they have been?

…..Warthog (Thunderbolt) A-10’s are another suspect….

Squarish wings


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a reply to: _BoneZ_

This has become a silly thread where the title just doesn't apply anymore. There were no UFOs near Phoenix, just human aircraft based on the evidence. If the myth is going to be laid to rest then this thread should have been buried a long time ago. To the gullible: give it up already and let the tale join the Roswell "crash"!