Can Universal Healthcare Save America? What Would JV Do?

a reply to: boohoo

Sadly, you are correct.

We are constantly manipulated and divided by TPTB. However, as a Libertarian I still can't support someone else telling me that I must be responsible for paying their expenses. It offends me to my very core.

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: coop039


Health care is not a basic human right.
I do agree that we spend to much money on other things, but health care is not a basic human right.

Why not?

You are the one that says it is a right for you to make me pay for your health care. We don't have to prove a negative as the onus of proof is on YOU for calling it a right.

I would never support a LAW that makes another human being responsible for someone else. I do not consent to being responsible for YOU. If you want to be responsible for someone that is why you have children.

All rights are subjective and not a matter of proof. Prove to me you have a right to anything?

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Metallicus
All rights require someone to pay for then, unless you think courts/police are cost free?
That said universal healthcare more than pays for itself, by not "paying" for others healthcare you Are actually making yourself worse off.

You are missing the point.

Even if what you are saying is true (which I doubt) I still am not willing to be responsible for paying other people's expenses. It is the principal of the matter and the fact that someone is trying to make me responsible for them that offends me even more than the cost involved.

We argue about a lot of silly things when we argue about healthcare and insurance and Obama Care and all of that.

The reality is quite simple. Based on 2 simple truths.
1. Our Healthcare system isn't right and it's very complicated.
2. We all agree that those that can't afford healthcare or have emergencies need help and should be entitled to it. ( I say this and some of you will say no, but what if you got downsized or laid off, got your health insurance terminated and then had a heart attack or worse...not you but your father or mother-are they not entitled to some kind of healthcare that wouldn't bankrupt them for the rest of their lives?)

and if you say no way. I won't pay for any of it. Then it's time to do away with Medicaid and Medicare and answer the question of who pays for emergency room visits and when an ambulance is called.

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Metallicus
All rights require someone to pay for then, unless you think courts/police are cost free?
That said universal healthcare more than pays for itself, by not "paying" for others healthcare you Are actually making yourself worse off.

You are missing the point.

Even if what you are saying is true (which I doubt) I still am not willing to be responsible for paying other people's expenses. It is the principal of the matter and the fact that someone is trying to make me responsible for them that offends me even more than the cost involved.

Do you use roads, are you protected by the police, if you house catches fire do you expect the fire brigade (or whatever you call it) to turn up. Living in a society involves sharing costs (never mind that you ability to pay itself is dependent on society).

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Metallicus
All rights require someone to pay for then, unless you think courts/police are cost free?
That said universal healthcare more than pays for itself, by not "paying" for others healthcare you Are actually making yourself worse off.

You are missing the point.

Even if what you are saying is true (which I doubt) I still am not willing to be responsible for paying other people's expenses. It is the principal of the matter and the fact that someone is trying to make me responsible for them that offends me even more than the cost involved.

Do you use roads, are you protected by the police, if you house catches fire do you expect the fire brigade (or whatever you call it) to turn up. Living in a society involves sharing costs (never mind that you ability to pay itself is dependent on society).

This topic is about health care. If you wish to talk about other issues start your own thread. I won't entertain your straw man arguments here.

a reply to: Metallicus

What parameters do you use to determine a basic human 'right,' and do you feel all human rights past, present, and future are static, properly identified, and secured?

a reply to: Metallicus

I still am not willing to be responsible for paying other people's expenses. It is the principal of the matter and the fact that someone is trying to make me responsible for them that offends me even more than the cost involved.

But you already are.

You're paying for your elected officials' healthcare costs... and their spouses... and their dependents.

It seems your elected officials made the decision (without you having any say in the matter) that they were to have the benefit of a universal healthcare system for themselves and their families, while the people they serve (their constituents) have to make due with a lackthereof.

Every time you open your wallet, an elected official's kid is getting a shiny new set of braces on their teeth.

a reply to: Metallicus
I fear you may need to look up the definition of strawman. You seem perfectly willing to pay for some public goods but not others?
If you can give me a convincing explanation if the difference between a state provided fire service and a state provided health service then I would be happy to consider it.

a reply to: CranialSponge

Just because a system is corrupt and ineffective doesn't mean I won't try to minimize its negative impact on me. Your response seems to be...well, we already have a bad situation so why not just make it worse?

I find that silly.

a reply to: Metallicus

How is ensuring that all citizens in a country have the same equal access to healthcare (thereby increasing the number of able-bodied workers due to better regular day-to-day health maintenance) making a situation worse ?

Universal healthcare pays for itself by way of improving the overall socio-economics of a country.

Yes, that also includes you personally and your family too.

a reply to: CranialSponge

Because you are forcing a system on me I don't want and you are not asking for my consent you are TELLING me how I should feel and what I need to do. That offends me and not because of the cost, but because of principle.

I receive my healthcare through the VA, for the last 5 years it has been awesome. They have done a good job, and probably have had better care than I did under private insurance. So not sure I have a dog in this fight, but that being said.

While everyone needs to make a living, when surgery became elective, and medicine for profit became a thing, the healthcare system in the USA became a nightmare. When Dr's and Big Pharma were allowed to advertise on TV and in Magazines, healthcare in the USA became a nightmare.

a reply to: Metallicus

If it offends you so much based on principle alone, then why are you not up on your soapbox screaming about having to pay for the healthcare costs of your elected officials, senior citizens, veterans, and the poor ?!

You had no choice in any of those either.

originally posted by: BubbaJoe
I receive my healthcare through the VA, for the last 5 years it has been awesome. They have done a good job, and probably have had better care than I did under private insurance. So not sure I have a dog in this fight, but that being said.

While everyone needs to make a living, when surgery became elective, and medicine for profit became a thing, the healthcare system in the USA became a nightmare. When Dr's and Big Pharma were allowed to advertise on TV and in Magazines, healthcare in the USA became a nightmare.

You earned that health care through your service.

Thank you.

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: BubbaJoe
I receive my healthcare through the VA, for the last 5 years it has been awesome. They have done a good job, and probably have had better care than I did under private insurance. So not sure I have a dog in this fight, but that being said.

While everyone needs to make a living, when surgery became elective, and medicine for profit became a thing, the healthcare system in the USA became a nightmare. When Dr's and Big Pharma were allowed to advertise on TV and in Magazines, healthcare in the USA became a nightmare.

You earned that health care through your service.

Thank you.

You are welcome, but that wasn't my point. Our healthcare system here in the USA needs to change. It needs to be not-for-profit, yes we have to pay the costs, but when corporations answering to shareholders, own most of the hospitals in this country, there is an issue. When big pharma is advertising, you may have this disease with no symptoms on late night and daytime TV, we have a problem. We pay more for health care than any other nation in the world, and only have about the 20th best care, can't find the stats right now.

Some of these are an idea from 1976 or 1977, I was a debator in HS, and one year the topic was National Health Care, with the statistics published then we funded it through the legalization and taxation of weed and prostitution, regulations would need to put in place, but almost 40 years later I think it is an idea that needs to be looked at.

originally posted by: BubbaJoe
Some of these are an idea from 1976 or 1977, I was a debator in HS, and one year the topic was National Health Care, with the statistics published then we funded it through the legalization and taxation of weed and prostitution, regulations would need to put in place, but almost 40 years later I think it is an idea that needs to be looked at.

NOBODY, with real power, wants to be the one whom starts a domino effect that will lead to a 21st century equivalent of the period that followed the passage of the 13th Amendment. A single payer healthcare system would eliminate a big portion of the general populations need and desire to work for employers as non-exempt employees. Meaning, the country would have a few years of absolute chaos in the labor markets, as people choose to suddenly not work for big government or big business as Full Time Equivalent employees. Contracting departments all over the country would not be able to handle the significantly increased load of incoming contract workers that immediately quit working, full-time, upon the introduction of a Single Payer Heath Insurance system. In states without robust healthcare policies, hospitals would be overloaded, private companies would become understaffed, billable hourly rates would drop in all sectors and state/local tax revenues would fall.

The introduction of a Single Payer Healthcare system in the 21st century USA, will be akin to the USA freeing slaves in the 19th century and the consequences of doing such won't be all that much different from what was experienced back then either.

That is why nobody with any money or power is doing anything about this and why we got the convoluted ACA instead of Single Payer.

a reply to: JesseVentura

Position like this, which demonstrate how strongly you support socialist policy, will ensure that you never "sit at that table" in Orlando, Jesse Ventura.
www.mediaite.com...

There is absolutely NO rationale for an individual to consider themselves a Libertarian while endorsing the single payer system. My God, single payer is even more draconian and Big-brotherish than Obamacare is... "Give the money to the government and they will provide for us." I believe you need to look for a table at the statist party whenever and wherever they hold their nominee party.

a reply to: Metallicus

bet it doesn't offend you as much it it did me to listen to the daily harping of the politicians on the state and local level about how they had to raise this tax and that tax, this fee and that fee, and on and on, to make up the shortfall in medicaid and/or medicaid that the states had to make up because bush decided to not fullfill his obligation and shifted the money elsewhere in his budget, probably his crusade. oh, ya, I forgot to mention I was listening to this while I was laid up in bed with a danged splint on my leg calling surgeons to try to con one of them into operating on it without demanding an insane down payment!

sorry but just as you see it unconstitutional for them to take money from you pocket to help provide healthcare for others, I think is much more unconstitutional when they take money from people who need that healthcare and can't obtain it because it's too costly.

ya know, I don't really know if obamacare changed anything in this regard, but I watch year upon year while I was living in NY. and it seemed like every time, those gov't programs expanded, soon afterwards, they were announcing nice big increases in the insurance premiums and you would be hearing about the nice big bonuses that were giving their top managers in the companies... for such a great job well done I suppose. ya know what, it couldn't have been that great of a job since what they have done in the past few decades have made the healthcare so danged expensive that they are forced to rely on the gov't to fund more and more people's healthcare year after year! ya, great job!!! not only have you made more and more people dependent on the government, but also the doctors, the nurses, the hospitals, and other caregivers, along with yourselves!!!

a single payer system might be the only way out of this mess at this point!